tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post7487173806833439296..comments2023-10-30T05:46:59.343-04:00Comments on The Doubting Writer: Making the Case for Flat VillainsJeffOhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07947660745120963286noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-84426843942442534212013-01-15T08:40:10.554-05:002013-01-15T08:40:10.554-05:00Hmmm... I'm thinking it depends on your story,...Hmmm... I'm thinking it depends on your story, possibly your genre to some degree (how much you really need to pump up your villain). <br /><br />Also, I think there is an element of trend to this thought that bad guys need to be fully fleshed out. It is like saying you should cut all adverbs. If you read older books, there are tons of dialogue tags and adverbs and flat/purely evil bad guys.<br /><br />More to think about...a few pages yet until my antagonist makes his debut. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09978176432357891953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-62361140018779058572013-01-14T23:09:23.252-05:002013-01-14T23:09:23.252-05:00I just love this post and I think you're right...I just love this post and I think you're right about it all. Although it makes me wonder if I went too far with the bad guy in my new book. LOL. We'll see I guess. But yeah, I always like the distance because when someone brings violence and trauma into our lives, even if we've known them for years, we suddenly feel as though we never knew them at all. It's very disconcerting.Lisa Reganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12899014095250160853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-65843264225206665142013-01-12T07:24:38.011-05:002013-01-12T07:24:38.011-05:00Thanks, Bonnee. As Bethany pointed out, 'flat&...Thanks, Bonnee. As Bethany pointed out, 'flat' may not have been the best term. And yes, you're exactly right, it's up to us to know what the story needs from our antagonists (and all our characters, of course) and build them from there.JeffOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07947660745120963286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-84959644665528481702013-01-12T07:04:29.004-05:002013-01-12T07:04:29.004-05:00I see where you're coming from, JeffO, you'...I see where you're coming from, JeffO, you've raised some great points here that I never really thought of. As writers, we need to consider what is necessary and what is unnecessary within what we write, and that includes how flat or well-rounded our villain is, like Sauron and LaValle compared to Javert or Light Yagami from Death Note. Bonnee Crawfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01513268628209169538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-74469398113925797652013-01-12T07:03:47.477-05:002013-01-12T07:03:47.477-05:00You make some great points here, Bethany. The word...You make some great points here, Bethany. The word 'flat' has some unfortunate negative connotations in regards to characters, but it was the best I could come up with. Maybe 'one-sided' would work better: it gets the point across without quite the same negatives as 'flat'.<br /><br />I think you also hit on something else that I thought about but didn't get into, and that's 'cartoony'. Sometimes, the 'mommy didn't love me' villains we get come across as caricatures and over-the-top. Those guys are still flat (in the negative way) despite being way overdone. Thanks for commenting!JeffOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07947660745120963286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-72092350482375209122013-01-11T19:30:21.568-05:002013-01-11T19:30:21.568-05:00Great points, Jeff. My villains rarely make it ons...Great points, Jeff. My villains rarely make it onscreen - and I never get inside their heads. Of course, my stories are romances, so I guess that's hardly surprising! :)Jemi Fraserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02214408467456320167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-27602849462752354902013-01-11T18:04:54.872-05:002013-01-11T18:04:54.872-05:00You make some good points here. Some people just d...You make some good points here. Some people just don't seem to have any redeeming features, or they've been buried somewhere as their evil side takes over. Yeah, some people we can't explain their motivations. That can be pretty scary if used effectively!Nick Wilfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03841776353790635132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-91976772485047473042013-01-11T13:42:30.142-05:002013-01-11T13:42:30.142-05:00I really like this post, and I definitely agree - ...I really like this post, and I definitely agree - sometimes bad guys are evil, they just are. Sometimes a sympathetic bad guy is the best way to go. But there is evil in the world, and evil often needs no motivation. However, as a matter of word-choice, I wouldn't say that unsympathetic villains are 'flat'. I wouldn't call Sauron a flat character (even though we barely see him, and always from a distance). Some of the most interesting, dynamic, intelligent villains I've read about have absolutely no visible reason to be the way they are. It's part of their personality, which can actually be far less flat than a stereotypical villain who did bad things because 'mommy didn't love me'. That villain has reasons, even empathy, but that's not always enough to bring him to life. :)Bethany Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12829932931010851406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8281000668036619727.post-38163857924727343442013-01-11T12:29:52.357-05:002013-01-11T12:29:52.357-05:00Bad guy motivation can be a lot of things. Mostly ...Bad guy motivation can be a lot of things. Mostly I think they just want what they want and will do anything to get it. Not to get all psychological (well maybe a little :P), but it sounds like even your bully is looking to reinforce something unhealthy he needs through his behavior in order to feel "good", and doesn't care who he hurts as long as it's not him. You're right we don't necessarily need to have that explained, especially if the story is told through another character's POV. Just knowing he's a bad guy is all we need sometimes. We can sort of intuit the rest. Luanne G. Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15762881276976395955noreply@blogger.com